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Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:13 am
by Storyteller
You may be right - I wasn't really keeping count.

Anyway, my point was not that the fire shugenja isn't an effective combatant, just that they're not head and shoulders above the other combatants, as you suggested earlier.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:33 am
by Danceofmasks
Storyteller wrote:You may be right - I wasn't really keeping count.

Anyway, my point was not that the fire shugenja isn't an effective combatant, just that they're not head and shoulders above the other combatants, as you suggested earlier.


I wasn't suggesting that at all.
The average fire shugenja isn't OP, 'cos they didn't spend a bunch of points to get hp then spend their earned points on nothing but ring.
I was saying my build is OP, and only after I get to rank 2.
I know if the other dragon shugenja were to rush in like me, they'd probably get dropped between casting spell 1 & 2.

I'll be able to conjure a spell packet that deals 16 damage.
Up against a mob of peasants? I'll be able to simultaneously destroy all their axes and bows and clothing.
Need to siege a fort? Is the door partially made of wood? How about ash?

Even right now, assuming the target of my Relentless Heat spell is able to count 30s while making Shield Stun 6 calls and trying to land hits, that one spell can be a "you win" button.

Joon does well in combat, and he didn't put all his points in combat like I did.
So if it is a case of equally combat orientated builds, he'll outperform me.


Ok, so this thread has got me thinking.
It's still early days, so it's quite possible the problem is just one of people knowing how to handle being buffed.
(That is, we're noobs, me included, when it comes to coordinating spell effects)

So, during weapons training on one of the day games I'll try my best to come up with a way to use Relentless Heat mid combat that doesn't confuse the bushi.
(and bushi who are interested, practice with the spell on them)
Feel free to suggest stuff. I'm thinking casting the spell loudly, and yelling out the spell name as I slap the target on the shoulder.

Especially when I should use it. Such as "any time we're outnumbered" or "I'll call for it"
Note that I can hold the spell effect up to 30s before actually applying it on a target.

After all, I'm not disputing the effectiveness of the spell texts - those spells are hella good.
My problem's always been that the bushi who's targeted has to do the 30 second count, while busy trying to fight.

30s or 60s count while healing, second winding, refitting, etc. is easy. 'cos you're just sitting there.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:26 am
by Shamoth
Danceofmasks wrote:as I slap the target on the shoulder.


:shock:

No touching!

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:29 am
by Storyteller
Danceofmasks wrote:Ok, so this thread has got me thinking.
It's still early days, so it's quite possible the problem is just one of people knowing how to handle being buffed.
(That is, we're noobs, me included, when it comes to coordinating spell effects)

So, during weapons training on one of the day games I'll try my best to come up with a way to use Relentless Heat mid combat that doesn't confuse the bushi.
(and bushi who are interested, practice with the spell on them)


Did you try it?

You might be surprised at the capacity of the non-shugenja to not become confused.



Anyway, to go right back to the original question, I think 30 seconds is a long time in a fight and that the spells with that kind of duration are probably fine.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:08 am
by Danceofmasks
Storyteller wrote:
Danceofmasks wrote:Ok, so this thread has got me thinking.
It's still early days, so it's quite possible the problem is just one of people knowing how to handle being buffed.
(That is, we're noobs, me included, when it comes to coordinating spell effects)

So, during weapons training on one of the day games I'll try my best to come up with a way to use Relentless Heat mid combat that doesn't confuse the bushi.
(and bushi who are interested, practice with the spell on them)


Did you try it?

You might be surprised at the capacity of the non-shugenja to not become confused.



Anyway, to go right back to the original question, I think 30 seconds is a long time in a fight and that the spells with that kind of duration are probably fine.


I've used it twice.
Once the bushi had forgotten what the spell effect was, so it was wasted.
Probably my fault for not teaching better.

The other time, the shield call was never used, so it was probably forgotten.

Although, both of these instances were when the call was "Shield Stun Earth 5," so it may have just been too much of a mouthful to bother.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:59 am
by Danceofmasks
Shamoth wrote:
Danceofmasks wrote:as I slap the target on the shoulder.


:shock:

No touching!


Yo, spell is "range: touch"
Also, I've already wrapped some 40 bandages on people.
And, I've helped carry someone ... err, or I would have, if that wasn't ret-conned.

A bit late for the no touching rule, don't you think?

Edit: Oooh. I also had to pull an arrow out of an Emerald Magistrate's back. I'm quite sure, since no one offered to assist me, I would have had to plant a foot in his back to do it.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:57 pm
by Mayhem
Danceofmasks wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Anyway, to go right back to the original question, I think 30 seconds is a long time in a fight and that the spells with that kind of duration are probably fine.


I've used it twice.
Once the bushi had forgotten what the spell effect was, so it was wasted.
Probably my fault for not teaching better.


I think this sums things up - 30 seconds isn't long enough if the Bushi doesn't know how to use the buff. Which I think is reasonable.

There's value in getting a reward from putting in the extra practice, I guess?

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:05 am
by Shamoth
Although, both of these instances were when the call was "Shield Stun Earth 5," so it may have just been too much of a mouthful to bother.


Wow, I would totally bother if someone could put that on me.

Actually 30 seconds seemed like an incredibly long time in combat to me, but since actually playing and using refits for Defence it's not as long as you think. It seems people will easily resposition or generally fanny around for quite big chunks of time, especially when engagements are stung out over an area. 30 seconds really seems like an amount of time you would use when attempting to drop a single target - any more is over ambitious.

So, all of this might be why PG for example had its durations as # encounters.

Also, if I came up against somone with a damaging shield and I didnt have a very good reason to want to drop them quickly anyway I personally would attempt to keep them busy for a while until it dropped and I could whale on them without any comeback.... I only hope NPCs with that ability use it in the same way as PCs.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:27 am
by Wilky
We try to make sure that NPCs function under the same set of rules as PCs. They even have the 60sec death delay that PCs have. There may be instances where an NPC has special abilities that PCs don't have access to, but there are always background reasons for that.

As a general rule, all samurai NPCs are built using the same character clans, families, schools, skills, kata, spell, advantages & disadvantages as PCs are.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:39 am
by Danceofmasks
Shamoth wrote:
Although, both of these instances were when the call was "Shield Stun Earth 5," so it may have just been too much of a mouthful to bother.


Wow, I would totally bother if someone could put that on me.

Actually 30 seconds seemed like an incredibly long time in combat to me, but since actually playing and using refits for Defence it's not as long as you think. It seems people will easily resposition or generally fanny around for quite big chunks of time, especially when engagements are stung out over an area. 30 seconds really seems like an amount of time you would use when attempting to drop a single target - any more is over ambitious.

So, all of this might be why PG for example had its durations as # encounters.

Also, if I came up against somone with a damaging shield and I didnt have a very good reason to want to drop them quickly anyway I personally would attempt to keep them busy for a while until it dropped and I could whale on them without any comeback.... I only hope NPCs with that ability use it in the same way as PCs.


You bring up a very good point, about keeping the buffed person busy, but that only works if you know they're buffed (and have a bit of an idea of how).
I was intending to teach bushi how to use the buffs, buf if we were in combat and I put it on someone, the opposing NPCs may have no idea what any of it means until they're actually stunned.

Now, while the process of casting the spell involves touching armour with a spell packet (your character was unarmoured? so can't use it anyway?), would it be beneficial do you think, to apply, say, a sticky red patch instead?
That way the enemies would sort of know "hey, that armour is on fire, I'd better be cautious"

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:20 am
by Mayhem
Danceofmasks wrote:Now, while the process of casting the spell involves touching armour with a spell packet (your character was unarmoured? so can't use it anyway?), would it be beneficial do you think, to apply, say, a sticky red patch instead?
That way the enemies would sort of know "hey, that armour is on fire, I'd better be cautious"


Well there's two things here:

One, that the spell has to be spoken aloud when casting - and since it only lasts 30 seconds it'd be a very fast enemy who'd only just moved into earshot.

Two, what is their Spellcraft?

EDIT - er, three things. Additional spell materials are difficult.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:25 am
by Shamoth
Danceofmasks wrote:That way the enemies would sort of know "hey, that armour is on fire, I'd better be cautious"


That is something people would tend to notice.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:42 am
by Ace
Rules note: Spells and Touch

"Areas and ranges of all spells correspond to one of the following:
... Touch – target(s) touched by the shugenja during casting. A spell packet should be used to actually touch the target(s)..."


This is the work-around for the no touching rule. Actual contact should be made with the spell packet. Thus its not breaking the 'no-touching' rule per se.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:55 am
by Danceofmasks
Ace wrote:Rules note: Spells and Touch

"Areas and ranges of all spells correspond to one of the following:
... Touch – target(s) touched by the shugenja during casting. A spell packet should be used to actually touch the target(s)..."


This is the work-around for the no touching rule. Actual contact should be made with the spell packet. Thus its not breaking the 'no-touching' rule per se.


Yes, of course. I've been doing that.
However, it is not practical, and once again rolls back into the logistics issue of a 30s count.

I've cast Earth's Touch in combat on bushi before, and when asked (afterwards), they don't even feel the contact, and therefore didn't know a spell was on them.
Now Earth's Touch, having a 2h duration, wasn't a big deal. I didn't really care if the 1 or 2 extra hits they had (and not counted) meant they had to be revived, it's not a big deal ... what's a big deal - the reason I cast those spells in the first place - was the possibility of having to resist taint from maho.
I just figured, after combat, if a GM says "you were tainted", I'd just chime in with "you saw me, I put Earth's Touch on him, even if he didn't notice. Resisted?"

That's what I mean by "slapping them" .. because the target has to know it was done, and start counting, and using the effect, I would have to apply enough force for them to notice.
Sure, I can do it vocally, but unless I go OOC and refer to them by name (which my character wouldn't do, real name or character's name).
The actual effect is going to be no different to slapping them with an open hand.
In fact, If I could do an open hand slap, it would make more noise - so I can do it with less force.

Btw, you misspelled Rokugan in the other post hereabouts, and it's driving me crazy.

Edit: bad grammar. @#$%!

Edit2: more complications.
It's even worse with a spell such as Biting Steel.
No bushi worth their salt is going to let someone else touch their sword in combat.
And, if cast just before combat, usually more than 30s goes by while people position themselves.
When the spell is both impractical in character, out of character, and not consistent with the lore, it's never going to get used.

Re: Short duration buff spells and you (rules proposal)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:27 am
by Danceofmasks
Another possible alternative?

Ok, assuming all spell texts are kept the way they are.

Let's say the target of a short duration buff has a 5m window, wherein they get to decide when to turn the effect on.
"My sword is on fire!" (hehe) or a similar call.
If this is the case, it would be more than fair to discourage the spells from being cast in combat (by requiring 30s cast time or whatever).

Edit:
I take that back.
There's some defensive air or earth spells, where not being allowed to cast those in combat would suck.

Edit2:
Gotta apologise for my grammar in these couple of posts. I just can't be stuffed fixing them.